About this Podcast Episode
On this episode, Angela and Kristin talk all things puberty! They dive into tips for broaching the topic, fielding those unexpected questions, and reasons why puberty discussions at home are so important for kids’ development.
About the Hosts
Angela Nelson, Ed.D., BCBA, and Kristin Bandi, MA, BCBA, are Board Certified Behavior Analysts with expertise on human behavior and child development. They spend their days working with parents and caregivers of both typically developing children as well as children with learning, social, and behavioral challenges, or developmental disabilities. This podcast is brought to you by RethinkCare.
If you need support as a parent or caregiver of a child, we encourage you to ask your Human Resources team if RethinkCare is a part of your employer-provided benefits. RethinkCare reaches millions of lives globally through partnerships with top organizations and Fortune 1,000 companies.
Transcript
Welcome to episode 46 of Behaviorally Speaking, a podcast featuring board certified behavior analysts Angela Nelson and Kristin Bandi. On this episode, they talk about all things puberty, from tips for broaching the topic to managing those unexpected questions. And now, here are your hosts, Angela Nelson and Kristin Bandi.
Angie: Hello and welcome to our forty sixth episode of Behaviorally Speaking. I’m one of your hosts, Dr. Angela Nelson, board certified behavior analyst and mother of 2.
Kristin: And I’m Kristin Bandi, also a board certified behavior analyst and mother of 3. Hey Angie, how’s it going?
Angie: It is good, I think I’m probably 1 of the rare parents that actually says I like talking about this topic that we’re going to dive into today.
Kristin: Oh, wow yeah you might be because I was actually even reading through it and thinking, because I’m not there yet, that’s a spoiler alert which you probably know from the title everyone it says puberty, but um, we’re not there yet over here and so I know when we were prepping for this I was like oh man, I’m going have to have these conversations. So, I think that’s good that we have 2 completely different, um, we’re on 2 ends of the spectrum here, so that’s good.
Angie: Yeah, I’m excited we, we’ve definitely already fallen into the conversations in our house about puberty and this month actually ah my fifth grader goes into the next section of Human, no, Growth in Human, what is it called?
Kristin: Human Growth and Development.
Angie: Human Growth Development something like that at their school system. We were reminiscing about last year’s and there’s a jazzy tune that goes ‘meet the new you, meet the new you’ and my mom was over, and they were my mom was just cracking up. Yeah so, it’s just fresh in our minds. So, this is a very apropos topic. But um, yeah so today we are going to be talking about approaching discussions of puberty and for those of you that want more of a technical definition puberty is the stage of life where the body of a child transitions into an adult body that is capable of sexual reproduction. We will just add in some extra elements here too which is we want to talk about the emotional site or emotional transition that also is usually paired with the stage of life, so we’ll dive into both today. Um, this conversation, the puberty conversation oftentimes will flow into deeper conversations about relationships and sex and so on and so forth. So today we’re going to kind of focus on the nuts and bolts the earlier stages of puberty.
Kristin: Yeah, and then maybe a second a follow up. I was thinking a follow up on just like relationships and how to build healthy relationships; what are those look like and like maybe focusing more on teens.
Angie: Um, yeah.
Kristin: I know we’ve done like a teen podcast, but I was talking with some of the other day about it and they were like uh my teen I just don’t know what to do and so I feel like we can never stop talking about teens
Angie: Yeah, yeah.
Kristin: Enough so that might be a good follow up 1 to this maybe this year.
Angie: Yeah, I like it.
Kristin: Yeah.
Angie: Yeah, let’s make a note.
Kristin: Yes, yeah so, this one, you know as we just said in the beginning you know like it. It can be I think every parent is going to feel a little bit differently about this topic and so like many things that that we discuss with our kids. It can be personal and some families I talk to are so open and I love that they’re like no we tell our kids everything we want them to know everything we’re an open book, and then you have families who are like nah we don’t, we just don’t want to have those discussions and we kind of shy away from it and then you have like everything in between so I’m sure everyone listening is kind of falls somewhere on that scale and also you had mentioned schools bringing this subject into schools
Angie: Um, yeah.
Kristin: and I was, I know when we were prepping you had said um, you had actually said Human Growth and Development and I was like ‘oh so they still do that’ because I was thinking about it I kind of like fell back into like fifth grade and I think I remember exactly where I was sitting when you said it and I was like ‘oh I remember this’, but I feel like and then I think I asked you like do parents have to consent to have their kids you know in that class is that right?
Angie: So, I think it I understand it to be quite different depending on where you are, at least in California this day and age, they do a lot of stuff together. Everybody learns about everything in one classroom they don’t separate out um, kids and I believe I had to sign something, um, I know actually now that I think of it, it’s kind of an expectation and I believe our district is like if you want to opt out sign this forum you can opt out.
Kristin: Right, okay.
Angie: But yeah, I don’t know if many people do opt out, at least here in this part of the country.
Kristin: Yeah.
Angie: So yeah, we start last year or so fourth grade. They started with some like basic stuff and I think it was the same even when I was a kid in in California we had the mother daughter T which is what it was called now they’ve you know evolved and expanded to just you know in the classroom that teacher, the school nurse kind of just talks to everybody and it’s not separate.
Kristin: Yeah I mean I definitely feel like it’s a good thing to have right? and I also have parents who will come to me and say, and I know we’ll get into this, but you know some parents who are like ‘I just don’t I don’t want to have this conversation’ and sometimes I’ll say ‘well, is the school having this conversation’ because then that’s your in right? You know it’s happening in school, I would imagine that in some schools they might even send you some of the curriculum or what are they teaching so you know as the parent and then you can follow that up with the conversations and even if it’s just like ‘do you have any questions about what you learned today’, but I feel like that’s I think a lot of parents and maybe including myself, maybe not now after all this research but um, might lean on the school to do some of that teaching and then you can kind of follow suit.
Angie: Yeah absolutely, you know our district puts it out on the website the videos and last year my older daughter and I we just watched the videos ahead of time
Kristin: Oh nice.
Angie: I asked her ‘you know, are you interested in taking a look at it and we can watch it together if you have any questions.
Kristin: Perfect.
Angie: So that way when it comes to the classroom, she’d already seen everything, so she already knew what to expect.
Kristin: That’s a good idea.
Angie: So that’s kind of a cool, yeah, they host it live if people want to come and view it together as a group and ask questions, but they also have the videos on the website. So, I feel like they have a at least here and in Southern California they have a good system for it.
Kristin: Yeah, oh well stay tuned in 2 years I’ll be able to let you know where we’re at with that with my oldest.
Angie: Ah yeah nice.
Kristin: What’s Florida looking like?
Angie: Yeah, yeah well so yeah so let’s kind of get into it we did a bunch of different, you know research activities here, um, and research really, we saw some consensus that researchers saying it is a good idea to start discussions early ideally before puberty sets in ah especially for girls as it as it relates to things like getting a period which is generally on average right now around 12 to 13, but could be as young as 9 years old um, in general puberty according to the medical field. Ah puberty happens usually between the ages of as early as 8 to kind of 14 It looks like we’re seeing that it’s actually starting earlier these days and that’s attributed to a couple different factors. Um, but keep in mind too, kids are also exposed at school and at TV or in TV um, programs and stuff sooner than you might think and you may want to be the one to kind of get in there and circumvent that and influence with correct information. Um, I think it’s also important to mention too, kids are really curious at a young age even when it just comes to bodies in general. So, it is recommended to use correct terminology as soon as possible and then approaching it knowing that curiosity is totally normal. Um, it’s best to not make those conversations shameful right? Because that could have implications down the road, right? We want to establish ourselves as trusted people that they can come to, they won’t be ashamed or felt and you know or made to feel embarrassed about asking these questions and we’re going, we’re going to talk more about that. But it is a good time at a very young age to normalize bodies and what happens to our bodies.
Kristin: Yeah I was just thinking you know what when you had mentioned they’re going to be exposed to this at school and it’s interesting because we said before how parents will you know parents will differ in the information that they give their kids and um, I remember I think I was just at like doing like a play date or something with my middle child who’s 5 and um, I think one of the moms was sharing a story or something of she’s got, we’ve got older kids too, right but she was sharing some stories of her older kids and um, one of the other moms was like ’I’m so sorry, but I accidentally, like my kid asked me where babies came from and then I told him and so now he’s probably going to tell your child, and I’m really sorry’ kind of thing and I was just like oh man because that was their older brothers right? So, I’m like okay and now it’s gonna come to my son and then it’s going to come to my 5-year-old and okay here we go? Um, but it’s just so interesting because you’re right like kids are going to hear about these things from somewhere and so I think as soon as you’re comfortable having these conversations I think it’s you know it’s important to start right?
Angie: Yeah, keeping it age appropriate though I think that is important right?
Kristin: Oh absolutely, yeah.
Angie: So, like that that the question usually does come up where do babies come, from keeping it you know short and succinct and just enough information that developmentally they can understand but you there will become a point in, and I would say in in many cases where like we had in our house, we were actually driving in the car and my kids were like ‘yeah but how does the baby actually get in there? Like Mom, I understand, but they, so they want to know a little bit more as they get older, and you can kind of you know it, we’re going to get to this, but it’s ongoing conversations.
Kristin: Right.
Angie: It’s not a one and done sort of thing and I will mention to you something that happened in our family. One of the reasons from personal experience of why it is important to have discussions is my mom always shared with us that when my grandma was younger, and she got her first period she thought she was dying because her mom did not say anything about puberty and what naturally occurs in bodies. Um, and so my grandma made a commitment for her children, she had 3 you know, they had a big family as she had 3 girls, and she made it a priority to be very open and honest with my mom and my aunts and so my mom did the same for us and so I grew up in a family where it was very normalized. We talked about it early and often and when these sort of changes occurred it was like okay this is no big deal, this is expected and it’s not something to be embarrassed or shamed about.
Kristin: Yeah, that’s such a good point and I love that they did that and then it kind of goes back to our podcast last month on like when we were talking about parenting styles and things it’s like we really do kind of revert back to like what we learned. Um, so that’s like perfect example there.
Angie: Um, yeah totally.
Tip #1: Make Sure to Emphasize That Puberty Is Normal
Kristin: Yeah, well let’s get into the tips and I will say that that was our first tip or at least part of it. So hopefully everyone was listening to your story. Um, so the first one when we were doing some research and thinking well, how do we support our kids and start, you know, talking about puberty? We you know, we came up with making sure to normalize that this happens I think that’s probably the key takeaway there because a lot of times like you’ve mentioned right? Kids might feel insecure and or they might feel alone, right? And especially for the kids who it’s they’re the first one out of their little group of friends or friends aren’t talking about it so you know especially if they’re the ones that need a training bra first or they get their period first or what’s this acne or my cracking voice and I think that could be embarrassing sometimes for kids if they have no, you know they have no information about this or even little information about this. Um, I think that could be scary.
Angie: Um, yeah absolutely.
Kristin: Yeah, and also, I want to mention you know of course we’re talking now about physical changes and I think those are obvious and we can see those, but kids and I actually tell parents this all the time um, be mindful of the internal changes like with emotions and hormones, right? So, I’ll have parents come to me and their daughters or sons. They’re like 10, 11 and they’re like ‘I don’t know what is going on like they are just like moody and like being so rude and I just want to punish them’ right? Like ‘I’m so angry’ and I’m like ‘well let’s think about their age, like I wonder what else might be going on here that’s causing this hormonal shift, or this change in attitude.’ So, I think that’s really important to pay attention to.
Angie: Yeah 100%, yeah, it’s and we talk about I think this theme is woven into a lot of our podcast episodes which is take a step back and put yourself in your kids’ shoes. You know being a teenager or a preteen is incredibly stressful and uncomfortable so, we have to recognize like they’re kind of juggling a lot.
Tip #2: Use Resources (Books, Videos, Websites)
Kristin: Yeah exactly. So. So yeah, I think just keeping in mind that you know kind of figure out what’s going on internally and externally with your kids normalizing it having that conversation and something else that I’ll mention, and we’ll give a few at the end. But sometimes it’s helpful if you lean on books or videos or just any specific sites. You know things that talk about this for you for those parents that are feeling a little bit like ‘oh I don’t even know how to have this conversation.’ There are a ton of resources on this so um, we’ll mention some at the end for you all if you want them.
Angie: Um, yeah absolutely
Kristin: Yea.
Tip #3: Be Prepared for Questions Ahead of Time
Angie: So going into our next tip, it’s important to be prepared for questions ideally before they happen. Um, you might be surprised, maybe no questions come that is a reality as well, but in many cases if you have established yourself as a trusted source of information, you’re likely going to get some questions. So, practicing what to say ahead of time might be good um, especially if you did not grow up in a household where these sorts of conversations were spoken about you know more freely or if you are recognizing in yourself that you’re getting embarrassed or really uncomfortable. It is a good idea to practice, or role play with somebody else. Um, you also want to do some research about what might come up. So maybe some FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions), what are some FAQs for kids in terms of puberty, ah establishing yourself as a trusted source. As we said, it’s okay also if you don’t know the answer to kind of pause maybe even say ‘you know what? I’m not actually sure about that. I think that’s an important question that maybe we can do some research together or we can ask your doctor, your pediatrician. It’s always a good idea to loop in another trusted source like a medical professional and also that person can serve as another source of accurate and reputable information besides you. It’s hey you know, you can always go to your doctor, your family doctor, your pediatrician to get some support or questions answered. And then it’s important to remember that them coming to you is actually a good thing if you think about it.
Kristin: Yeah.
Angie: Your initial knee-jerk reaction might be ‘oh my gosh, no why is this happening?’, but if you think about it you’ve done a good job of establishing yourself as a trusted source of support, because they’re coming to you with these questions, um, and be mindful and think ahead and recognize that if you shut it down or you have a negative reaction or a big reaction or an embarrassed reaction, they may they still have those questions, it’s not going to squash the curiosity, they’re probably going to look elsewhere for information and that actually goes with a lot of concepts that we talk about right? If you are really quick to have a super harsh punishment on things, I think we talked about this in the lying episode.
Kristin: Oh.
Angie: You had to teach your kids to be good liars or maybe they go elsewhere. So, this is just ah another reminder to be very mindful of your reactions when kids come to you for questions and be prepared ahead of time so you can be more thoughtful and have an appropriate response.
Kristin: Totally and I think that you know even taking it 1 step further like you said like I think talking about drugs and sex like all of that stuff this is, what your reaction now is actually I think for kids helping them see like what your reaction might be in the future if they come to you and say ‘hey so-and-so so said this at school what does this mean’ right turning into ‘hey so-and so offered me this at school, what does this mean right?’ like I feel like it’s yeah it’s definitely really important.
Angie: Yeah.
Tip #4: Talk to Other Parents of Pubescent Children
Kristin: Yeah so, the next tip here and I think this one again this this can kind of ah pertain to a lot of different areas of concern for parents. But um, when it pertains as it pertains to puberty I think talking to other parents who have been through it that can be so helpful because I’m sure many parents have talked to somebody and they’re like ‘oh man let me tell you what I wish I knew, let me tell you what I wish I learned or someone told me before’ right? And then I think those are the best parents to talk to because then you get some of those you know kind of insider tips, right? Like ‘hey you’ve been through this, like what did you learn, what worked well, what didn’t.’ Um, I think that could be so good.
Angie: Yeah, we, so we did talk a little bit about um, and we know that a lot of our listeners have kids with either intellectual or developmental disabilities and so talking with people in your network about ways to approach puberty for this population of kids can be really a really great way to get some insights. Um, I’ll just share that I was working with a teenage girl many years ago when I was doing in-home therapy and um, she was more significantly impacted by Autism and so puberty was a tricky time in terms of the whole kind of menstruation process right? Having to wear a pad or a sanitary napkin and we had to do lots of practice in terms of what that’s like and the process of using a pad um, and we got creative with like markers and you know we just practice, and we did that before she got her period because we were anticipating that was going to come and so when it did come, it was not nearly as big of a transition, and she was ready, and her mom was feeling good about it and confident and her mom shared that with some of her other friends in her network and they’re like ‘oh my gosh , yeah we’re going to do that with our child too,’ So, ah yeah being able to connect with parents who’ve been there who’ve tried some cool things can be really helpful.
Kristin: Yeah, and you know connecting on how to explain it to your child right? Like you said, I love your ideas of ‘hey let’s get, let’s get in there. Let’s create some systems of support.’ Maybe it’s the visual support or maybe it’s you know a practice rehearsal, but even you know cognitively how can we help your kid understand what’s going on with their body. Um, I feel like that’s a question I get often from parents. Um, I think we mentioned it on another podcast episode, but it may have been the last one or the one before, but amaze.org is a great site for this um, all things kind of pertain to what we’re talking about, but um, yeah really good website and I definitely think that for kids, um, maybe even, oh and another thing you could do too is maybe even asking the school? So, like in the special education, um, you know whoever the coordinator is, like if they’re doing it in fourth and fifth grade for their general education seeing what special education offers as well could be helpful.
Angie: Yeah, absolutely how they might be adapting to meet the needs of those students.
Kristin: Yeah exactly.
Tip #5: Check With Your Child’s School on Their Puberty Curriculum
Angie: Yeah, I think sometimes parents forget to partner with schools, you know what I mean? Um, I think it’s a good reminder to say ‘hey newsflash, schools are experts on kids this age’ you know they deal with kids this age all day, every day you know it’s the administrators and teachers that work in middle school in particular gosh they are such experts, and they know you know everything there is to know about this age. Um, so don’t forget to lean into that and take you know take advantage of these great resources, these people that know so much about this stage of life.
Kristin: Totally yeah and that applies to a lot of things I’ll have parents say to me ‘hey do you have any storybook recommendations’ for like their fourth grader or something or ‘what are good book series’.
Angie: Yes.
Kristin: And I’m like ‘ooh what about the reading teacher, how’s your, what about the English teacher?’ and they’re like ‘oh yes um’.
Angie: Right? Or the librarian, that’s their job.
Kristin: Yeah, or the librarian. Yeah, exactly, so it is yeah don’t forget about the other resources.
Angie: My kids love their school librarian they’re like oh ‘Mrs. so-and-so bought this whole new book series because and she wanted me to test it out’ and I’m like ‘are you like best friends with the Librarian’ But yes, I do go in there every day.
Kristin: Okay.
Tip #6: Keep Conversations Going On Early and Often
Angie: So ok um, well ok so moving on to one of our last tips. We’ve just blown through this topic.
Kristin: Hmm yeah.
Angie: Um, we touched on this earlier, but it is important to keep these conversations going and early and often and the conversation door open because it will be easier later. Um, this will more naturally flow into the more complex topics about relationships, about sex, about consent. Um, you know maybe even things like birth control those sorts of things. So, if you have these conversations and they flow it will be more natural. Um, you can also prevent the dreaded ‘the talk’ if uh, we never really had the talk in my family because it was just kind of a natural progression and then when we did actually get to the point where we were talking about the specifics around sex. It was kind of more of a ‘oh okay yeah well that makes sense.’ You know it wasn’t this jarring shocking thing that everybody was so uncomfortable with because my kids had already been kind of primed to talk about bodies and things like that.
Kristin: Um, yeah.
Angie: So, um, I’m glad the approach that I took um, I feel like they’re educated and it’s normalized and they’re It’s not scary or taboo.
Kristin: Yeah, that’s smart just to start soon and ah you know use your resources and open the door.
Angie: Um, yeah.
Kristin: Um, I had a thought and I just lost it. I think this might be the first time this has happened to me on here. It was a good one.
Angie: Um, maybe do your book recs and then it might come.
Kristin: Oh man um, ah it’s gonna come back to me I know it was really good too I was like ‘oh this goes really in line with this what you just said’ and then I lost it. So, any who it’ll if it doesn’t come back to me then I’ll just, you know mention it next month cliffhanger for everyone ‘what was Kristen going to say’
Angie: Yeah, about puberty.
Kristin: Um, ah yeah about puberty. Um, I don’t know it’s I might be gone for good now. But we’ll see it might come back.
Puberty Resources and References
Kristin: Um, so yeah there’s there are a lot of different books, and I was looking this up I think um, I’ll mention a few but s I was looking it up too If everyone is not familiar with Brightly. Um, it’s a really great site and you can go
Angie: Brightly?
Kristin: Yeah, so B R I G H T L E Y Oh no sorry I was spelling my daughter’s name with an L E Y, Brightly B R I G H T L Y Um, yes so, it’s um, it’s ah all it’s all books, so, it’s basically like a virtual library.
Angie: Oh cool.
Kristin: Yeah, and then you go in there and you can search any topic and you can even sort by age sometimes when parents do ask me for their book recommendations for their fourth grader. You can go in and look at like okay teens and tweens.
Angie: Oh, I’m going to use that. Yeah.
Kristin: But you could yeah, it’s great, but I was actually looking it up for discussions on puberty, um, and there is um, I think her name is um, Mayam…
Angie: Oh, Mayim Bialik.
Kristin: Ah yes, thank you Mayam.
Angie: Like, she was on Blossom, that show from like the 90s or yeah.
Kristin: Yes, and she’s now the new Jeopardy host.
Angie: I love her, she’s like a real-life neuroscientist. I follow her on social media, she’s fantastic.
Kristin: Well, she has written 2 books on this which I didn’t know until I just looked on here, so she has Girling Up and Boying Up which I was like oh my gosh how cool?
Angie: Oh interesting.
Kristin: Yeah so, I haven’t read them so I can’t say you know if they’re amazing or not, um, I feel like it might be more of a modern-day kind of take on some of these things which could be really good for parents. So yeah, definitely look those up. And then um, when we were doing some research a couple that came up which so some families might be familiar with there’s It’s Not The Stork. Um, it’s for our younger kids? Um, so it’s a book about girls, boys, babies, bodies, families, and friends and that’s by Robbie Harris. And then for older kids which I’ve seen this one before it’s What’s Happening To Me: A Guide To Puberty by Peter Male? Malley? Male? Um, it’s M A Y L E I should probably start looking up how to say people’s names better before I why I say them. And then the other one is It’s Perfectly Normal: Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex and Sexual Health also by Robbie Harris so um, but there were a bunch so a lot of times parents will ask me and I’ll say just you know look on there and then read about it a little bit and then pick the one that feels most appropriate for you, you know what feels right and then I’ll always say ‘read the books’ and I actually have some families who I’ll say um, they’ll say ‘you know I think I’m just going to like give them the book’.
Angie: Aha.
Kristin: And I’m like ‘that’s fine, but just as long as you’re like do you have any questions, what can I help you with or maybe you at least read it first.’ Um, things like that because you’ve got parents all over who are like ‘can I just like, give it to them’ um, I’m like ‘well you might need to you know provide a little support.’, so.
Angie: Yeah ah, yeah, I’m just thinking to 1 book that a couple people have recommended to me, I have it on my Goodreads app, I don’t know if we’ve talked about Goodreads.
Kristin: Um, oh yes.
Angie: That’s where I track all my fun books? Um, but it’s called The Care and Keeping of You. It’s an American girl book, it’s got really good reviews.
Kristin: Oh, I love the series.
Angie: Yeah, it’s and it’s a good one for girls to read. And then we’ve mentioned this in the past, but Untangled: Guiding Teenage Girls Through the Seven Transitions into Adulthood.
Kristin: Oh yes.
Angie: Yeah, that’s by Dr. Lisa Damour. That’s a really good book if you’re kind of sailing towards adolescence, that’s for the parents to read of course, but it’s ah it’s another really good one. I really like Dr. Lisa Damour and I follow her podcast to Ask Dr. Lisa so yeah.
Kristin: I can’t even make this up I had a parenting consultation today and the parent told me that they were reading that book, and I was like ‘oh yay Untangled yeah’.
Angie: Oh wow.
Kristin: And I was like ‘oh okay great’ I was like ‘I hear so many good things about that book I want to tell everybody that has a preteen to read it.’
Angie: Yeah, you got to read it.
Kristin: Is it just for girls, like specific to girls?
Angie: Yes, this one is, but there is um, she does, let’s see she does recommendations, um, yeah, she does recommendations for you know boys and, on her podcast, too. She doesn’t just hone in on girls.
Kristin: Right.
Angie: It’s kind of gender, yeah so yeah.
Kristin: Yeah, well there’s all kinds of resources out there so, I think for everybody’s comfort level. You know depending on how comfortable you are or not so comfortable, there’s definitely resources, um, but that’s all we got. That’s it for today.
Angie: Yeah.
Kristin: All right? Well thanks for joining us on our forty-sixth episode of Behaviorally Speaking, on our next episode we will be discussing preparing your child and you for their transition out of the home. Until then don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite platform, so you never miss an episode.
You’ve been listening to Behaviorally Speaking, with Angela Nelson and Kristin Bandi, brought to you by RethinkCare. Find out more at Rethinkcare.com. You can find past podcast episodes under the Resources tab. We also invite you to subscribe, follow, like, and leave us feedback wherever you listen to podcasts. Your feedback helps us prepare topics and content for future episodes. Until next time, have a great day.
